Baptism was a good topic...... haven't studied it too much but it looks like my post was rather long, haha.
Last night I had a bonfire out back with a few friends. We were discussing a few things. I had told one of them about a theory about something that happened in the garden of eden and we debated it last night with another friend, it was a good time. So, I guess I'll post it here and see what everyone else thinks.
So, In Genesis God told adam not to eat the fruit of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil. That's easy. at that point there was no Eve. The Bible never said that God told eve the rule about the fruit of the tree, so I assume that adam probably told her. When the serpent tempted eve with the fruit however, eve does not quite the rule correctly. She doesn't just say she's not allowed to eat the fruit from that tree, she tells the serpant that they are not even allowed to touch the tree. I assume that adam told eve that changed rule just to make sure that she wasn't tempted to eat the fruit. Or, eve changed the rule to keep herself away from the temptation of the tree's fruit. Which ever way it happened, the rule which eve quoted was not the rule that God gave to adam. This new rule which is meant to help eve to stay away from the tree is what I call "the fence".
"the Fence", metaphorically speaking, is anything which is created by humanity that is meant to keep us at a distance from something we should not be involved with. In eve's case, again, that something was EATING THE FRUIT, and the fence was TOUCHING THE TREE"S FRUIT. I think that it is our nature to assume that if we guard ourselves against something, it will be harder for that something to have an affect on us. In the cases of setting up these fences though I think that they cause us more problems than they help.
Let me explain a little. Let's say that someone is unaware of the fences that are set up. This person simply thinks that if the fence is crossed then something bad has happened. In actuallity the something that is bad may be quite a distance from the other side of the fence. The problem happens when there is a person who in their "weakness" crosses the fence, and then because they already think they have done wrong they just continue on their way until they actually are doing something wrong. The fence in this case assisted in makeing the person apathetic about their actions simply because the fence was crossed and unknowingly this person still had not actually done anything wrong, but because of the apathy...... something wrong was done.
Do you get what I am trying to say? I am saying that the fence is a negative thing. The fences are rules and traditions and requirements which we or the Church sets up without any direction given from God or without much thought as to what kind of affect it might have on the big picture. God certainly has said a lot in the Bible.... however if you take the dogmas and catechisms of churches around the world and in history you will certainly see beliefs that are not told to us by God to follow, however have been set up by Churches in order to assist us in our walk with God. These things however...... which I'd like some of you to mention and post on here for the rest of us......... do more bad than good and actually deter people from following God and Christ becuase of the legalism and systematic way which Christ's message is distorted and perverted. Most of these distortions and perversion were meant for good, however they were unneccessary and they no longer are considered to be fences but to be the actual way which God has communicated his truth to us!!!!!!!
It is absurd..... see if you can think of anything...... Ill post some on here after a while if no one responds.
Last night I had a bonfire out back with a few friends. We were discussing a few things. I had told one of them about a theory about something that happened in the garden of eden and we debated it last night with another friend, it was a good time. So, I guess I'll post it here and see what everyone else thinks.
So, In Genesis God told adam not to eat the fruit of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil. That's easy. at that point there was no Eve. The Bible never said that God told eve the rule about the fruit of the tree, so I assume that adam probably told her. When the serpent tempted eve with the fruit however, eve does not quite the rule correctly. She doesn't just say she's not allowed to eat the fruit from that tree, she tells the serpant that they are not even allowed to touch the tree. I assume that adam told eve that changed rule just to make sure that she wasn't tempted to eat the fruit. Or, eve changed the rule to keep herself away from the temptation of the tree's fruit. Which ever way it happened, the rule which eve quoted was not the rule that God gave to adam. This new rule which is meant to help eve to stay away from the tree is what I call "the fence".
"the Fence", metaphorically speaking, is anything which is created by humanity that is meant to keep us at a distance from something we should not be involved with. In eve's case, again, that something was EATING THE FRUIT, and the fence was TOUCHING THE TREE"S FRUIT. I think that it is our nature to assume that if we guard ourselves against something, it will be harder for that something to have an affect on us. In the cases of setting up these fences though I think that they cause us more problems than they help.
Let me explain a little. Let's say that someone is unaware of the fences that are set up. This person simply thinks that if the fence is crossed then something bad has happened. In actuallity the something that is bad may be quite a distance from the other side of the fence. The problem happens when there is a person who in their "weakness" crosses the fence, and then because they already think they have done wrong they just continue on their way until they actually are doing something wrong. The fence in this case assisted in makeing the person apathetic about their actions simply because the fence was crossed and unknowingly this person still had not actually done anything wrong, but because of the apathy...... something wrong was done.
Do you get what I am trying to say? I am saying that the fence is a negative thing. The fences are rules and traditions and requirements which we or the Church sets up without any direction given from God or without much thought as to what kind of affect it might have on the big picture. God certainly has said a lot in the Bible.... however if you take the dogmas and catechisms of churches around the world and in history you will certainly see beliefs that are not told to us by God to follow, however have been set up by Churches in order to assist us in our walk with God. These things however...... which I'd like some of you to mention and post on here for the rest of us......... do more bad than good and actually deter people from following God and Christ becuase of the legalism and systematic way which Christ's message is distorted and perverted. Most of these distortions and perversion were meant for good, however they were unneccessary and they no longer are considered to be fences but to be the actual way which God has communicated his truth to us!!!!!!!
It is absurd..... see if you can think of anything...... Ill post some on here after a while if no one responds.
I love your tag as fences, some Bob Vila fan is going to stumble on your page now! Haha. Not to be anti-christian, or church, as you know I am not. But couldn't the No Eating The Fruit Rule just be as easy as simple human error? Like how it is completely possible that Moses never parted the Red Sea to save the Israelites from the Egyptian army, when in fact it could be a translation error or a copying error. Scientifically, which I can't trust 100% either has "found" that there is a small patch of water which back then was known as the Reed Sea and in the summer months it is often dry and barren and in the Fall, Spring, and Winter is often filled with water and full of life. As a person who probably didnt drive by this sea all the time [0_o] may have seen it once when it was prosporous and marveled at the fact that just mere months later. What does this all have to do with? Faith. But then again that is the basis behind all theology isn't it?
ReplyDeleteSteve,
ReplyDeleteI love this post because I know I have been struggling with the thought of "Did God really intend it to be that way?". I read this to Adam and he totally agrees with your thought on this one.
I don't really have another example at the moment (it's 10:08pm and I'm a new mother...enough said :D) but I wanted you to know that I think this is a very good post and I loved reading it!
First, Harry, I hope that Bob Villa comes on here himsellf along with his fans haha. Second, harry I understand what you are saying and I think the translational/societal/interpretive/inspiration/...... topic can be discussed deeper in a separate post, but it does play a role in this topic. The whole reason the fences are put in place starts with an understanding of something which then over time no longer is a translation or as I said before a tool to help guide us. It, because of this interpretation/societal changes/and so on, becomes the absolute path. The scientific and faith separation which you are arguing here, may also be one of the issues that have been set into place in the past which actually does not need to be there..... as well as many other things. This also will be discussed elsewhere.
ReplyDeleteHarry I know you are not anti christian, and I am very glad that you are posting on here. Please continue. The more views we have posting, the more we can all help each other become aware of what other people are thinking. The purpose again of this site is not to convince people of my ideas, but to discuss and debate in order t express, test, and strengthen that which we individually believe to be true. Or to explore that which we do not know.
Human misunderstanding Harry could also be an issue that we discuss about the Bible later in length. But, yes I think that because of our misunderstandings, fences are built and turned into truth simply because time has an effect on what we as people pay attention to. I'm not sure what I think about the "for instances" you typed up. But, I do know that it could be the case that believing the Bible in such a strict and literal interpretation, (or at least in a way that is consistent with the accepted and conservative interpretation) could be a sort of fence that we have put in place so that we as people KNOW what God wants and thus give ourselves or more importantly for the cause of many christian communities in the past, make it so that others have no excuse for not acting in the accepted way. Of course I also think that maybe a too loose interpretation could be bad as well. Talking of fences though, the way which we interpret the Bible has been changed and molded over the past 10000 years since the stories started getting told. In our time period the dominant view in Christianity may be a fence. That is just my opinion and plpease no one take this conversation out of context or as an assault.
So thanks for your post Harry.
Amanda I am very glad you joined the conversation. I hope that Adam would post on here as well. I think that a lot of Christians struggle with Christianity and non-Christians as well, because when we really dig deep into the heart of what God is trying to do with us, we don't understand much of what our religion has put in place. These fences confuse us as well as deter us from accomplishing God's work and it is a turn off for many people and especially for the kind of minds which have been pumped out of the school systems. We are taught to try and understand everything. With so much in our religion (and by religion I don't mean God's true religion, but ... I think we understand what I mean) that seems absurd and different from that which God has spoken to us about, it is a turn off.
A few things that I have come accross that are much more minor than what the posts have brought out already are things that have been around and maybe we don't notice but still have effects on people.
-no dancing
-no dating
-no drinking alcohol
-no watching family guy....simpsons...
-no listening to rap, rock, unless its christian (which is so fake and terrible)
-don't hang out with non-christians too much, they might rub off on you!!!
-make sure you pray before meals
-you better vote for a republican
-if you arent financially stable you must be doing something god doesnt like
-if you arent healthy it must be punishment for something you did
-nationalism making war and killing ok
-patriotism doing the same
Ok so some of these things may not be fences so much as they are things that make me angry. I will be posting about the nationalism and patriotism thing next. so look out for it!!! It may offend some if read the wrong way.
baptism, fences, let me take it further in another direction.
ReplyDeleteThe type of "fences" you speak of are indeed true and part of human nature, I believe the teachings of Jesus actually were mainly about tearing down those walls. Let me step way back from there though.
The bible for me begins with Exodus, has been that way for a while. I don't really put much importance on Adam and Eve, Cain and able,Babel towers, or Noah's ark. I feel that the content of the first book are merely moral stories passed down by word of mouth. Ancient 'bed-time' stories if you will. Thats a pretty brave statement to be made by a mere man about a holy book isn't it? I believe that's part of what Christ was teaching, its at least part of what I take from it. Plus, there is a reason for this.
Exodus - This is where the bible starts off with actual historical accounts. Why? Because the stories of Exodus actually take place in a land of civilized people, many who have some form of reading/writing. In actuality, the oldest carving of an alphabetic phrase comes from Egypt. If you google "oldest alphabetic writing" you will find many articles on it, but not many of them publish what it says.I can't for the life of me find the translation to the text, but I saw on a History Channel special (lol) that the text roughly reads "God, don't forget me"! While many historians refuse to put that Moses or "Moshe" even existed, this early semite writing puts them in egypt nearly 2,000 years before Christ. The writing is crude, its still based on hieroglyphics, and it is NOT Hebrew, Latin, or Aramaic but an early version of these languages. That means any record keeping of Semite people before these times was non existant.
What do I take from Exodus? A great story of a man who leaves riches to live in poverty and to rescue his people from oppresion. Its one of the oldest stories of "sticking it to the man"! I take from it as the point where people focused on one main God and slowly forgot their demi-gods. I also take from it that God's role on earth then still reflects the modern view. Well I guess it's more just my view, and thats the point of what I'm saying here. Now the Bible says, god brought all these terrible plagues onto the people of Egypt. The important thing here is that these were all forms of NATURE. This kind of thing still goes on today. I am not a fan of saying that god punishes people with natural disasters but is important to the story that God did not send down warrior Angels on chariots to destroy Egypt nor did he simply decree them in hell. What happened is water turned red (something that has happened in modern times), the creatures in the water die except the frogs which can move to land, dead fish attract nats, animals migrate into villages looking for new water, the nats and fleas and lack of fresh water leads spread disease, nearby volcano violently explodes as it does every so many thousands of years and the ash forms hail in the upper atmoshpere, locusts move in in the usual giant swarms to take advantage of the new food source flying about, ash from the volcano drifts in and brings the land in darkness, earthquakes, fault lines change paths of water, yatta yatta nobody really knows. I guess you could say god is mysterious, or you could call it coinicidence, or you could say that it never happened. The plagues aren't even as important to me as what happens after the Israelites leave Egypt. God promises the Israelites their own nation, but they have to TAKE IT THEMSELVES. What if the average devout Christian (or even Jew) still had this view about prayer. If you wan't it, you earn it. This is how Muslims work; they didn't sit around waiting for Allah to blow over the WTC. They don't wait for anything to happen, they are a 'reap what you sow people.' Much of the rest of the old testament shows this. That's what I love about it, perhaps God is waiting to see what you make of yourself.
...Oh yeah, walls! Were talking about Walls being peoples focus being on the wrong place in a story. Maybe they are missing the important parts, maybe they are wrong altogether. Perhaps these walls are formed for people to have brotherhood, although they are often opressing to those whose personality just doesn't fit within. While I just spent a great time writing about what I take from the stories there is much else in there as well. When the Israelites reach Sinai the people recieve the 10 commandments from God. Tradition teaches that these 10 commandments are the most important ones.
"You shall have no other gods before me."
Tradition says that this is where God tells us hes the only God that exists. Read it again! Thats not what the English says. Intent is hard to determine in crude language however it is important to know that the Israeli people worshiped MANY GODS before this day.
"You shall not make for yourself an idol in the form of anything in heaven above or on the earth beneath or in the waters below. You shall not bow down to them or worship them; for I, the LORD your God, am a jealous God..."
Hey that sounds like altars and crosses and statues of saints and paintings of angels and other common things!
“Remember the Sabbath day by keeping it holy. Six days you shall labor and do all your work, but the seventh day is a Sabbath to the LORD your God..."
We hold church on Sunday and it is our official Sabbath. Until recent days people were shunned for working through the Sabbath. Well guess what... Sunday is the FIRST DAY making Saturday the seventh.
Yet devotees focus on the specifics on these rules to the most critical degree, pointing there finger in every direction, most often on themselves. Perhaps the point was "I promise that good things are more likely to happen to good people."
I will pick up later with where "My Bible" ends. This is getting too lengthy for one post anyways.
I agree with this so much. That is one reason why young people in this day and age hate the church and want nothing to do with it. To them it screams 'Legalism, Legalism, Legalism!', when in the Truth of God's Word, it's actually as far from legalism as possible!
ReplyDelete