So far so good guys and girls. We are definately getting some good conversation.
Instead of responding to "Attum" in the "fences" post I decided to start a new post since the conversation is leading to a more specific topic.
The topic is moving toward the inspiration, authority, translation, exegesis, and interpretation of the Bible. Harry brought up the idea that science seems to be trying to find ways which it can make the Bible untrue, or depending on how you look at it, science has found things that seem to be leading towards having us interpret the Bible in deifferent ways. Which one do you think?
I think that what harry is saying leads us to think negatively of science and its findings, even if what they find is unrelated, we do have to take a look at what our faith is actually founded upon. Let us say that what Harry says is true and the sea never parted for Moses. What does that do for your faith. I feel that if your faith is shaken just because some particulars are shattered, then your faith is not solid and your foundation was never on The Triune God and his love. Your foundation may be on the book that is the Bible. Just because the Bible is the "word of God", no matter how you look at it, it can and never was meant to be the ground which you stand upon. The ground on which you stand upon should be the truths and message that it teaches us. That message is what Christ teaches. Love God and love your neighbor. Is that what your foundation is..... is it love?
One of the major topics of discussion and debate is the Genesis story. Now Attum has expressed his opinion of Genesis, and from the way our lives our lived and what our culture is accustomed too it may be easy to pass Genesis off as just weird stories which were passed down. I could write a lot about why I don't think this is the case but it is not important as long as Attum gets the point of why the Bible is even there, which is to get God's message accross.
In short, The Genesis story seems to have originated after the story of Gilgamesh, and Marduk, and other Ancient Near Eastern Texts were very integrated into the lives of the people of Assyria, Babylon and the people from south of those places which included the people who created and recorded the stories of Genesis. The myths that I mentioned before were creation myths which were based upon bloodshed, war, selfish gods, and human slavery to those gods. In what I have studied the Biblical story, which came after that of the other Ancient Near Eastern Texts, is an attempt change the worldview of humanity. Technically it is a critique on the other stories. The story tellers are trying to change the mindset that we were created with selfish intent, because of war, and with blood shed, with the intent of slavery. The biblical story is a story of love and heaven and earth are places of things that are "great" in the eyes of God. There was nothing like that in the ANET's. The story of the tower of Babyl (Babylon), the story of Cain and Abel, and others are a clue into what the mindset of bablylon and Assyria were like because of what their myths taught them about gods and themselves. It taught that bigger is better, the more you do for God the better off you will be, the closer you are to being a god the less of a slave you are and the more they are pleased with you, and with bloodshed you can solve problems which otherwise cannot be solved.
The Biblical stories in Genesis are actually critiques in order to change the worldview of the reader into being a loving creature based on how the story shows that God's interactions with us are not based on his selfishness and his lust for our blood and work, but on his love for us and his yearning for us to also love him and the rest of his creation.
I think that with this brief introduction to the text of Genesis you can see why I disagree with Attum's summation. But, although other readers may not know who Attum is, I know that even without him caring about Genesis, he still gets the message of what God is longing for. This leads me to the idea again of the debate about Creation and Evolution, and also everything in between. Do you all think that it is necessary for a Christian to believe in a literal 7 day creation?
I have thought about this a lot, and have concluded that I don't know. Although I find it harder and harder to see a point in standing firmly one way or the other. The point is, is the message getting through. Are we as humans seeing that God loves us, and that he wants us to love him and the rest of earth as well? Are we seeing that God, no matter how he did it, has worked out heaven and earth to be the way that they are, which in his mind are great! Beyond that, again I think that what harry says and what I commented on about your foundation comes into play here, where will you stand if somehow you find out that a belief in a 7 day creation is not the truth? Will your faith in the Triune God be shattered, or will you still stand firm even though what you thought was correct was not? Where will you be if you find out that the 7 day creation actually did happen and you have been thinking wrong the whole time? Is your foundation on that belief or are you standing on the love of God?
That is the point of the Bible. It is not there to tell you what to believe for the most part. It is there to guide you on your journey of life and faith. If we focus too much on those TOOLS which are there to lead us to righteousness and God, then we don't get to see who God actually is, and we don't get to see and use that love which he has been yearning for us since he showed himself to us.
Again this conversation leads to the questions of the inspiration of the Bible's writers, the authority of its "dogmas", and so on...... but again I say to you, if you understand the point of the Bible, then those things, once understood that it is a tool for our use from God to help us, truly become pointless to argue about. As long as the message is understood, the Bible has done its job. When the Bible is not doing its job though, is precisely when we misinterpret, fail to exegete correctly, and because of these things create fences, dogmas, "truths" which are not, and a Christianity which misses the point of the tool of the Bible in the first place.
Jesus was and is the word of God. The Bible is not. Jesus did not send the Bible to be our helper after his death and ressurection, he sent the Holy Spirit. Jesus is full of Grace and truth and life and light according to these verses in John. The Bible is not said to be these things here. Is your faith in God the Father, God the Son and Word, and God the Holy Spirit............ or is it in the Bible?
John 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 He was with God in the beginning. 3 Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made. 4 In him was life, and that life was the light of all people. 5 The light shines in the darkness, and the darkness has not overcome it.
John 1:14 The Word became flesh and made his dwelling among us. We have seen his glory, the glory of the one and only, who came from the Father, full of grace and truth.
Thank you all for posting, and I am excited to see what everyone thinks about what I just wrote, because it seems blasphemous, but if you really look at what I am saying you will understand that I am seeking the God of the Bible at the heart of what I am saying and nothing else!!
(P.S. I use the Bible in my daily Christian walk, and I think that it is the best physical tool that we can use to find God's path. I also think that I am human and I hope I don't offend those who think differently than I. Let's just talk about it and see where we get. Ultimately I think we will find that we agree on more than we disagree, especially when it comes to the point of all of this.)
Instead of responding to "Attum" in the "fences" post I decided to start a new post since the conversation is leading to a more specific topic.
The topic is moving toward the inspiration, authority, translation, exegesis, and interpretation of the Bible. Harry brought up the idea that science seems to be trying to find ways which it can make the Bible untrue, or depending on how you look at it, science has found things that seem to be leading towards having us interpret the Bible in deifferent ways. Which one do you think?
I think that what harry is saying leads us to think negatively of science and its findings, even if what they find is unrelated, we do have to take a look at what our faith is actually founded upon. Let us say that what Harry says is true and the sea never parted for Moses. What does that do for your faith. I feel that if your faith is shaken just because some particulars are shattered, then your faith is not solid and your foundation was never on The Triune God and his love. Your foundation may be on the book that is the Bible. Just because the Bible is the "word of God", no matter how you look at it, it can and never was meant to be the ground which you stand upon. The ground on which you stand upon should be the truths and message that it teaches us. That message is what Christ teaches. Love God and love your neighbor. Is that what your foundation is..... is it love?
One of the major topics of discussion and debate is the Genesis story. Now Attum has expressed his opinion of Genesis, and from the way our lives our lived and what our culture is accustomed too it may be easy to pass Genesis off as just weird stories which were passed down. I could write a lot about why I don't think this is the case but it is not important as long as Attum gets the point of why the Bible is even there, which is to get God's message accross.
In short, The Genesis story seems to have originated after the story of Gilgamesh, and Marduk, and other Ancient Near Eastern Texts were very integrated into the lives of the people of Assyria, Babylon and the people from south of those places which included the people who created and recorded the stories of Genesis. The myths that I mentioned before were creation myths which were based upon bloodshed, war, selfish gods, and human slavery to those gods. In what I have studied the Biblical story, which came after that of the other Ancient Near Eastern Texts, is an attempt change the worldview of humanity. Technically it is a critique on the other stories. The story tellers are trying to change the mindset that we were created with selfish intent, because of war, and with blood shed, with the intent of slavery. The biblical story is a story of love and heaven and earth are places of things that are "great" in the eyes of God. There was nothing like that in the ANET's. The story of the tower of Babyl (Babylon), the story of Cain and Abel, and others are a clue into what the mindset of bablylon and Assyria were like because of what their myths taught them about gods and themselves. It taught that bigger is better, the more you do for God the better off you will be, the closer you are to being a god the less of a slave you are and the more they are pleased with you, and with bloodshed you can solve problems which otherwise cannot be solved.
The Biblical stories in Genesis are actually critiques in order to change the worldview of the reader into being a loving creature based on how the story shows that God's interactions with us are not based on his selfishness and his lust for our blood and work, but on his love for us and his yearning for us to also love him and the rest of his creation.
I think that with this brief introduction to the text of Genesis you can see why I disagree with Attum's summation. But, although other readers may not know who Attum is, I know that even without him caring about Genesis, he still gets the message of what God is longing for. This leads me to the idea again of the debate about Creation and Evolution, and also everything in between. Do you all think that it is necessary for a Christian to believe in a literal 7 day creation?
I have thought about this a lot, and have concluded that I don't know. Although I find it harder and harder to see a point in standing firmly one way or the other. The point is, is the message getting through. Are we as humans seeing that God loves us, and that he wants us to love him and the rest of earth as well? Are we seeing that God, no matter how he did it, has worked out heaven and earth to be the way that they are, which in his mind are great! Beyond that, again I think that what harry says and what I commented on about your foundation comes into play here, where will you stand if somehow you find out that a belief in a 7 day creation is not the truth? Will your faith in the Triune God be shattered, or will you still stand firm even though what you thought was correct was not? Where will you be if you find out that the 7 day creation actually did happen and you have been thinking wrong the whole time? Is your foundation on that belief or are you standing on the love of God?
That is the point of the Bible. It is not there to tell you what to believe for the most part. It is there to guide you on your journey of life and faith. If we focus too much on those TOOLS which are there to lead us to righteousness and God, then we don't get to see who God actually is, and we don't get to see and use that love which he has been yearning for us since he showed himself to us.
Again this conversation leads to the questions of the inspiration of the Bible's writers, the authority of its "dogmas", and so on...... but again I say to you, if you understand the point of the Bible, then those things, once understood that it is a tool for our use from God to help us, truly become pointless to argue about. As long as the message is understood, the Bible has done its job. When the Bible is not doing its job though, is precisely when we misinterpret, fail to exegete correctly, and because of these things create fences, dogmas, "truths" which are not, and a Christianity which misses the point of the tool of the Bible in the first place.
Jesus was and is the word of God. The Bible is not. Jesus did not send the Bible to be our helper after his death and ressurection, he sent the Holy Spirit. Jesus is full of Grace and truth and life and light according to these verses in John. The Bible is not said to be these things here. Is your faith in God the Father, God the Son and Word, and God the Holy Spirit............ or is it in the Bible?
John 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 He was with God in the beginning. 3 Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made. 4 In him was life, and that life was the light of all people. 5 The light shines in the darkness, and the darkness has not overcome it.
John 1:14 The Word became flesh and made his dwelling among us. We have seen his glory, the glory of the one and only, who came from the Father, full of grace and truth.
Thank you all for posting, and I am excited to see what everyone thinks about what I just wrote, because it seems blasphemous, but if you really look at what I am saying you will understand that I am seeking the God of the Bible at the heart of what I am saying and nothing else!!
(P.S. I use the Bible in my daily Christian walk, and I think that it is the best physical tool that we can use to find God's path. I also think that I am human and I hope I don't offend those who think differently than I. Let's just talk about it and see where we get. Ultimately I think we will find that we agree on more than we disagree, especially when it comes to the point of all of this.)
Hm. I do see what you are saying, and I agree with you to a degree, but I do disagree with the possibility of the creation account in the Bible being wrong, as well as any other stories in the Bible.
ReplyDeleteHey Matt, thanks for the comment, I haven't seen it until now.
ReplyDeleteI don't remember everything I wrote specifically, but I think that one of my points was not that the stories are wrong, but that we are using them in the wrong way. Perhaps they were never meant to be taken the way we always want to take them. Perhaps they are to be used as tools to teach us about God and HOW he interacts with us, not so much HOW HE HAS interacted with us. Besides, isn't the most important part of the word how it changes us to be in a closer relationship with God and a better relationship with other people..... if a story in the Bible is 100% true, or not, if it succeeds at its goal then isn't that what God wants.